“Who Doesn’t Wanna Be a Sleepy Lil’ Guy?” – Interview With Mr. Sleepy Man’s Developer

In the weeks leading up to PAX West 2024, I checked through the list on the PAX’s website to investigate every single booth that would be there, to determine which to reach out to (provided they don’t reach out to me). I was scrupulous in my hunt, and thus found a healthy amount of indie gems that might otherwise go under the radar — often from freshman devs. Games like oneway.exe, Spiral, or Fowl Damage. But, of all the games that I uncovered through this research, there is only one that I purchased: Mr. Sleepy Man.

The second I saw the game, I subscribed to Devin Santi’s Patreon for the game. Sometimes, you just know you’ll like something. Over the following several hours, I proceeded to play through a good chunk of the Patreon build of the game, putting aside the dozens of demos I had to play and guides I had to write. It’s a little clunky, it has a long way to go, but none of that mattered: all I know is that I had a fantastic time playing it.

Naturally, I reached out to the game’s solo developer (and composer), Devin Santi. It didn’t take long for us to make a plan to meet up at PAX for an interview and — no surprise here — what amounted from this was an excellent interview where we explored what it is like to be in control of a creative project, how music factors into play, and the nature of surrealism.

But don’t let me tell you about it! Instead, allow me to simply present the full, exclusive interview between myself and Devin Santi:

Graves: Hello, Devin! It’s great to meet you in person. For those that don’t know, Devin Santi is the artist, programmer, composer, and everything else for Mr. Sleepy Man. But, for those that don’t know, what is Mr. Sleepy Man?

Devin Santi: Yeah, okay! Mr. Sleepy Man is a 3D platformer/sandbox adventure where you play as a sleepy guy. He’s out of control, and he’s up to no good. He’s a menace, causing chaos all over Bedtime Town.

Graves: That sounds about right. And we will talk more about the game in a moment, but first, about you: before you got into game development, you’ve been a singer, songwriter, and composer for quite a long time, since you were a little kid. So, let’s start there: how did you go from making music, to making a game.

Devin: Well, Mr. Sleepy Man is kind of a “secret rock opera.” A lot of it started with that music, and I just realized at some point making music that it would fit really well into a video game. And I started thinking and, yeah, just ended up with the concept of Mr. Sleepy Man. It all started with the music, though.

I have a lot of music in there, in fact. Right now, my favorite is Lost in Dreams, which I released recently as a single. And there is a whole interactive level with Lost in Dreams, kind of like a music video/video game crossover. I think of it kind of like my Sonic Adventure, Escape From the City song. Very fast-paced, fun, colorful.

Graves: And that makes sense, because I certainly have Lost in Dreams stuck in my head. It’s a great song. I mean, everything about Mr. Sleepy Man is great. And it all comes from your hard work; you know, I’ve been on your Discord server, I’ve seen how much you put in.

Devin: Yeah, I’ve been going nuts. And I’m very greatly to my community on Discord. It is so rewarding seeing a community come together around something I make, it makes all that hard work really pay off, you know? It is grateful to see them want to play it. To take the time out of there day to play it. And not just to play it, but to go through, find the bugs. It’s incredible, and seeing how much my community has helped really makes me appreciate play testers. You know, these are people who paid to have access to the game, who love it so much that they are willing to use their time to help make it better. It’s so cool to see. I really owe them, and it’s been great to watch that community grow. Thank you, thank you, thank you!

Graves: I’m so glad to see that, and to see a developer recognize the importance of their play testers! You, unfortunately, don’t always see that. But also, it comes from you. We all — and I include myself in your community — we all are latching around the same experience of Mr. Sleepy Man. It’s a great game, and there is a surprising amount going on. Let me ask: what are some of the inspirations for the game? Where did it come from, as a game?

Devin: Well, I’d say it’s very inspired by the 2000s, but it isn’t specific. It’s not just 2000s 3D platformers, not just Banjo Kazooie or Sonic Adventure. It’s also inspired by 2000s music, and 2000s movies and video and TV. Technology, and so on. Everything that was in the media during my childhood, it’s all a part of that.

Graves: I can definitely see that in the music. Lost in Dreams definitely evokes that 2000s pop-punk sound very strongly. And that’s one of the more obvious 2000s references.

Devin: I’m a very good producer! Yeah, I guess I just know how to capture that feeling, and that’s a big part of Mr. Sleepy Man. And I really love capturing that very specific 2000s pop-punk vibe. But that is just one of a lot of places that Mr. Sleepy Man goes, it doesn’t just stick with one genre. Another song is more similar to Nu Metal — I mean, look at my shirt [Note: Devin was, in fact, wearing a Linkin Park t-shirt] — and there are a lot of different directions I go. So while Lost in Dreams is very pop-punk — very inspired by Blink-182, Good Charlotte, a bit of Green Day — it is just one of many inspirations.

And that’s what I mean, right? There are different influences, just in the music. But it all points back to the 2000s. That’s the era I grew up in, and really is the kind of nostalgia I’m fishing for. There is a lot I’m saying, and it’s all part of that same 2000s perspective.

Graves: It almost sounds like there is something a bit deeper going on. You say “you, you’re just a little sleepy man causing chaos,” but it seems like there is a bit more going on thematically with the game. At least, in playing it, I thought so. Would I be right? Is there more to the Mr. Sleepy Man than just silly fun?

Devin: Definitely. But… Well… Let’s see…

I love lore. I love writing lore. But I hate shoving it in your face. The lyrics and music, together with the visuals, are how I express what I’m trying to say the best. I don’t want dialogue telling you the history of Bedtime Town, I want the lyrics and the atmosphere to do that. So, yeah, there is some thematic stuff, but it’s contained within those parts.

Graves: It’s more of an aesthetic theme than a literal one?

Devin: Exactly! It’s vague, but you know the feeling I’m talking about. The themes are the emotions. There are a lot of themes of escapism, and nostalgia, and dreams, and those are just… vibes, you know? Emotions, not messages or anything.

Graves: It’s very dreamlike. Which fits, given that you do play as Mr. Sleepy Man. Why did you choose the dreamlike feel that you did for Mr. Sleepy Man, anyway?

Devin: Yeah, so I’m very specific with how I show the dream world. It’s not like Psychonauts. You aren’t physically going into someone’s brain. Instead, in Mr. Sleepy Man, the dream world is TV. The world in the screen. When you start the game, you get grabbed and pulled into the TV, but it’s kind of this thing where you are also looking at the TV, at the screen. So there is this factor, as you get pulled further in, of, like… What is the difference between your real screen, and the virtual screen? When you play, you yourself also get totally absorbed — at least I hope — and so what is the differentiating factor between real life, and what’s behind the TV, as a dream world?

Graves: It’s interesting, you really seem to connect dreams with the TV. I guess that must relate to how you grew up; do you want to expand on that idea a bit? Would you call this a game for kids who got lost in dream worlds or in screens?

Devin: It… is for those people. But it is also for those people when they grow up, and have had those dreams broken. I’m writing about “the real world” within the context of a game, in that your memories and your dreams, they’ve been broken, and left behind. The nostalgia aspect there is obvious, but it isn’t necessarily just for its own sake. Instead, it’s a theme of the game. I want players asking: “Why are we looking back? Why are we holding on to these memories, instead of moving forward?” I guess that’s the theme of the game.

Graves: It is interesting how you use dreams and memories to connect it with a kind of negative nostalgia. And then how you communicate that through the kind of ridiculous, absurdist world of the game. There is an absurdist mania, but also an almost somber stillness, depending on parts of the game. That’s really interesting.

Devin: And that, in my opinion, just comes mostly from my artistic sensibility. Which I’ve honed for a long time. I’m not going into this as the first thing I’ve created — like, I’ve been creating videos on YouTube since I was 12 years old. So I have a sensibility already. A sort of comedic and philosophical style that I’ve already honed. There is comedy, but my music is serious. So you have these two sides, and balancing them is just a matter of that sensibility: I’ve practiced a lot, and I know what I want because of that. So it just comes natural to combine the absurdism with the more serious stuff. There is a battle, and I think I balance it well.

Graves: And I think that battle showcases something that happens a lot in older, 2000s media — and all media — when something is goofy and silly, and then there is a moment where a character says or does something that just makes you go, like, “woah, that’s real. That hit hard.”

Devin: Well, that’s the point: you want to slap someone in the face a little bit. You know, it can come across to some people as “too much,” but I think it’s important. I think it’s important to slow down and have that human element, or else it’s just… I don’t know… I think it’s very easy to miss that human element.

Graves: It reminds me of my playthrough of the game. There is a segment early in the middle where I end up playing as Teefy, who is looking for a lost Dinosaur Jones. And this is a really silly set-up, right? But you go through, and you realize that Teefy really does miss Dinosaur Jones. That something is wrong with the absence. There. And it hits. And then, right after, of course, you end up in the Lost in Dreams sequence, which is its own kind of ridiculous, but plays above your serious music. I think that was when I realized that Mr. Sleepy Man was doing something really unique.

Sorry, I kind of gave an interview answer myself there. But to get back to the interview, let me ask: how do you feel about that segment of the game? Especially that Lost in Dreams interactive music video?

Devin: Yeah, I didn’t know how it was going to be received. I’m still learning that, in fact. But it’s really interesting… It’s, like, I’m taking this vulnerable side of myself. I’m filming myself on camera, I’m making a music video, I’m making a game around it. And I’m hoping to have a total of 3 songs like that in the finished game, so I’ll get to do it again. Though maybe those will be a little bit less… ADHD. In fact, that’s about all I have left to do, make those other video sections, and then the game is pretty much done. I’m saving the best for last.

And, like… that all comes from myself, and that makes it nerve-racking. But exciting. It all started because, when I was a kid, my mom would sit me down in front of MTV, and that was my first exposure to art. Or, at least, the first art-form I really fell in love with. And so to make something from that experience… It’s something really special. It’s my childhood, as much as my N64. And all the other 2000s things. But it started with MTV.

Graves: And you can really see that in your work. All these different elements, working together. All these different art forms you have an appreciation for. I love how you take things from concept to reality, using these many ideas and references. How do you go about taking a concept from idea to reality?

Devin: A lot of mistakes. It’s all about mistakes.

Like… Teefy, Teefy is a character I made by accident. I was learning to 3D model, and I thought, “let me just sculpt a face”. And so, I made him and I… Well, I just immediately laughed. His face looked so stupid, that it made me laugh. All from a mistake.

And that’s a lot of it. There is something special about unconsciously creating. I do it with music a lot: you just start playing on the keyboard, and you don’t know what you are going to play. Or you start drawing, and you don’t know what you are going to draw. A lot of what you’ll make are mistakes, or things you don’t want. But sometimes, the subconscious works. It just starts, and most is just jumble… But some of it clicks.

Graves: I really like what you said about mistakes. If you had to guess, what percentage of game design, would you say, is accidents?

Devin: 90%. Or more of it. Some of the best stuff in the game comes from things you never expected a player to find. From a bug you decide to keep, or because of a weird hitch in the level design. And those become features, and design sensibilities. If something goes wrong, then, it’s about thinking on your feet and asking, “Okay, that’s new. How do I use that?”

I’ve never worked on a team, but I’ve kept up with game design for a long time. What I’ve noticed a lot of studios do is that… Well, they’ll get together, and they’ll start by planning everything out. They’ll make a document for the design, and then for the levels, and then the narrative. They get it all planned, and then create it. But that’s very counterintuitive to the most important part of the creative process, at least for me. Because a lot of the best things that are created, they can’t be planned for. And if you plan too much, you’ll take those best things out without realizing it. And you won’t ever create anything that comes to you on the spot. You hinder yourself.

Graves: I definitely agree. That ‘stream-of-consciousness’ style, it really does add something. It really allows someone like yourself to make a game that can be more interesting than games made by teams of hundreds. Do you think that games made your way — that stream-of-consciousness way — is becoming more doable for more people? Do you think there is a shift toward this style of game design?

Devin: It’s definitely becoming that. And it means that more people can put more of themselves into making their art. There are more guardrails, things are easier — still really hard, but easier — and so you can put more of yourself in your games. And, like, I’m just one person, and so it is very important for me to put all of myself into this Mr. Sleepy Man. And, as an added benefit, this way, no one can say no. And that’s what I love about where game design is now, that total freedom of expression. It’s perfect.

Graves: It’s so cool to live in a world where games are considered this expressive medium. Where the debate is settled, where video games are art–

Devin: Well, some games are art. I have my doubts for others.

Graves: Oh? Interesting. Well, let me reframe my question. Do you consider Mr. Sleepy Man a work of art, and do you consider yourself an artist?

Devin: It is up for other people to decide, but I think that art is human expression. And it have to be someone channeling the human experience through their chosen medium. And that’s what video games can be now, or maybe always, but definitely now. And thanks to them being easier to make, that opens up a loit more room for individual expression, for individual humans to put themselves into their work, to showcase their human experience.

I mean, when you think of a painter, you think of one person, alone in a room, just painting. Or an author, writing a book. And now video games can be that, too. The distance between the artist and the medium is smaller than ever, and it is a lot easier to express yourself, rather than follow a technical document. And teams can do this, too, but a good test is whether an individual can do it, and do it artistically.

And we are just getting started, too. I mean, when you think about cinema, that isn’t even fully developed yet. And it is nearly 100 years older than video games. Right now for video games, we are in the equivalent of the 1920s for cinema. We haven’t even had our Citizen Kane yet. The best game, or at least the most revolutionary game, has not been made yet. The one to change it all? Not yet.

So, when you ask me, am I an artist? I just don’t know. Video games have a long way to go. I like to think I am, but there is so much left to go.

Graves: That was a fantastic answer. Wow. Give me a second… I guess, to follow that up, what are some pros and cons to developing a game by yourself? I feel like you already answered, but just to have it on the books.

Devin: The pro… Well, the pro is that you can do whatever you want. There’s no one telling you no. No one telling you what should and shouldn’t be the game.

And the con… The con is that there’s no one telling you no. No one telling you what should and shouldn’t be there. I have a good idea what I want to do, I have strong sensibilities. But games, well… Even when developed alone, they require other people. Play testers to test them, players to experience them, all sort of other people to help make them a reality. And so, doing it all alone, I am responsible for all of that. But it’s also so good. It would be impossible to make Mr. Sleepy Man without the community who are already playing this game.

Graves: And I’m very happy to be part of that community. But, we are about at the end of our time. I will say, to end, I am a subscriber on your Patreon, I have Mr. Sleepy Man on my wishlist. I really want others to as well. So, in that light… Do you have anything else to say here, at the end, to convince our audience to check out Mr. Sleepy Man?

Devin: Who doesn’t wanna be a sleepy lil’ guy?

Graves: Well said. Thank you again, Devin.

As I stated above, I do highly encourage you to check out Mr. Sleepy Man on Steam here and on Patreon here. It is currently slated for a 2025 release, though you can access the development build with a Patreon subscription now. It is a truly fantastic, unique experience, and my conversation with Devin Santi has only confirmed just how special it is. And, whether you decide the game is for you or not, I’m going to call it here: Devin Santi is well on his way to becoming an indie darling, and I can’t wait to see where he goes in the future.

Make sure to get a good night’s sleep, everyone.